Generic submission
Ev Chistr 'ta, laou! (Cider-drinking Song)
Submitted by
On December 6, 2008
Description
History
Hello,
As you may know,the version by Alan Stivell is just another cover-version like all the others that still have to be added : more than 700 pages and a lot of them with very little information and links so the editors can check if the given info is right.
As you can read in the guidelines,it can take very long before a cover is added as all the editors are amateurs and work on the site in their spare time.
But I can help you with some more information on the cover by Alan Stivell.
"Son Ar Chistr" was released in 1970 on the B-side of the single "Brocéliande".
It was released on Fontana 6010 022.
You can listen to it on YouTube:
You can also watch a live-version by Alan Stivell:
http://www.ceolas.org/artists/Stivell.html
http://www.folkroddels.be/artikels/1596.html
http://rateyourmusic.com/release/single/alan_stivell/broceliande___son_ar_chistr…
http://fabien.osmont.free.fr/stivell/album.htm
http://www.originals.be/nl/main.cfm?c=t_upd_show&id=5745
Groeten uit Zeebrugge.
Patrick.
Last updated by Patrick on 2009-01-07 20:55:27 UTC
Hello Patrick and Kej
I have tried to research this song over the last few weeks, but unfortunately there is almost nothing on the web in English. So I need some help.
I have found this page http://arbannour.free.fr/konchennou/son_ar_chistr.htm. I may be wrong as my French is not very good, but it seems to be suggesting the song is not traditional but written in 1929 by Jean-Bernard and Jean-Marie Prima. So, can someone who speaks French and/or Breton please follow this line of enquiry and see where it goes? If it was written in 1929 by Jean-Bernard and Jean-Marie Prima, then of course we will need to find the first recording or performance. Or, if I am wrong and my translation is bad, perhaps someone can correct me... 
The Primas are also mentioned on Scooter's website http://www.scootertechno.pl/inspiration.php, so there does seem to be a connection of some sort (Scooter did some kind of cover of this song, called "How Much Is the Fish?", already in SHS).
Thanks
Last updated by baggish on 2008-12-07 20:32:31 UTC
Hello Baggish,
Your French is alright,the text says it was composed by the Prima's.
On the Arnols Rypens-site,Arnold says it was written by a breton flute-player who ended as a clochard.(text is in Dutch).
Greetings.
Patrick.
Last updated by Patrick on 2008-12-08 07:36:53 UTC
I can give you more precisions about "Ev' chistr 'ta, Laou".
This, more often called "Son ar chistr" or "Son ar sistr", is part of the Breton tradition.
As for all traditional songs, somebody has created either the lyrics, either the music, or both; often it has been modified by others. As part of tradition, again, nobody signed it, declared it, copyrighted it. Often, nobody knows the actual author; sometime he is known, sometime just half sure.
It was still sang among the fans of Breton folk music and dance (which were still few) in the 50s and early 60s, in that traditional, and a capella way.
Alan Stivell decided to work on a professional level, creating a fusion of Breton with other Celtic traditions, and with modern and other cultures influences.
He has been one of the fathers of "World music".
Nobody had done it before in Brittany.
As soon as 1966, he put this song in his repertoire with a musical arrangement. He was the first doing it.
Then, as you quoted now (so we will have the pleasure to see this added here), it was on his July 1970's single "Brocéliande-Son ar chistr". A big success, as his first professional and singer album "Reflets", including this song (December 1970).
More recently, he recorded it again on "Again" (1993).
So you must recognize that nobody would speak of this song at all if it had not been recorded, published, for the first time, by Alan Stivell.
And to use the term "cover" for it would be very strange. As strange is the fact that Alan Stivell was not quoted, when one of the more or less 100 covers (Goran Bregovic) was declared as the first.
For the term "cover", do you use it each time a singer as recorded for the first time a traditional song? I am suspicious.
As I said before:it's not because it's not yet in the database yet that it will never be included.
As i said before : the editors still have a lot to add(see the more than 700 pages with covers to add).
There are even topics from 2006 that haven't been added yet but there are not a lot of topics with links to sites where editors can check if the topics are right!!!!!
Alan Stivell isn't the "inventor" of this song so he will be added as a cover.If he changed the words,then covers with the same words will be added as "covers"of the Stivell-cover.
If you have links to sites given more info,please put them in a reply.Thank you.
Greetings from Zeebrugge.
Patrick.
Hello Kej
As Patrick says, we editors are all volunteers adding to the SHS website/database in our spare time. As you can imagine, this is the task of a lifetime! In addition, French/Breton folk songs is quite a specialised area and as far as I know none of the current editors is expert in it. Koan, who added the versions of "Son ar chistr" that are currently in the database, is no longer an editor. I will take this case on, but I am not an expert and will need help. I did reply to one of your earlier topics http://www.secondhandsongs.com/forum/index.php?topic=16047, but I don't think you saw my question so I guess this did not help speed things up...
When you ask "For the term "cover", do you use it each time a singer as recorded for the first time a traditional song? I am suspicious.", I can answer as follows. A traditional song began life before the recorded era, being sung in public gatherings of many kinds. It is of course impossible to state a first performance of these songs, espcially as their lyrics and tunes evolve over time. In the SHS database, we acknowledge this period in the song's life by creating an original that we state to be "written by traditional" (a phrase that is not technically correct, but...). This original usually has no performer. The first recording is a cover in the sense that it is a cover of these earlier live public performances, or a cover of the existing tradition (i.e. it is not the beginning of the song's life). In some cases (this one) all subsequent recordings will be inspired by the first recording. In other cases, recordings may emerge separately from the tradition and so are not connected so closely.
Anyway, now we have contact and as I guess you know about the song, I hope you can answer these questions:
i) At the moment, we have the original traditional song being titled "Son ar ghistr". Is this the correct spelling, or should it be "Son ar chistr"? I believe we have a current error topic about this.
ii) What is the role of Jean-Bernard and Jean-Marie Prima in the history of the song? Did they write the lyrics, music, both or none? Did they record their version? If not, what happened to it?
iii) Does Alan Stivell credit anyone for the song (lyrics or music)? There is something on the rear cover of "Reflets" at http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=1431983 but unfortunately it's not clear enough to read.
Thanks both of you for your help so far.
Thanks very much to take time for it.
I was a bit nervous because my first observation as I remember was before 2006, perhaps 2004...
Apparently I did not find your earlier answer and questions.
I understand your point of view about traditional songs.
By the way, a good number of Charts songs have a traditional origin even if often the first cover claimed to be the author (!).
I can answer you.
1.The correct Breton is "Son ar chistr", but also "Son ar sistr". The first is the most well known as it became a popular title through Alan. "Son ar ghistr" is a mistake.
2.Nobody is sure of the traditional author of the lyrics. I had heard of somebody around the villages of Scaer or Guiscriff in West center Brittany. I can go further in researches if you need. At this point I don't know of these Prima brothers. I asume that the music itself is much older.
3. Every time when Alan Stivell arranged a traditional song or music, he quoted "Traditional", or later "Domaine Public", precising in general the country it comes from; then it is precised "Arrangements Alan Stivell".
You can imagine that giving to Goran Bregovic the place of first cover was a bid hard for Breton music fans.
OK, I have corrected the spelling of the title of the traditional original and added a comment (Son ar chistr
I have added Alan Stivell's version (Son ar chistr I am assuming he sang in the Breton language, is this correct?
However, I am not convinced it's a traditional song.
Some sources suggest it was written by an anonymous Breton piper or tin whistler, e.g. Patrick's link www.originals.be/nl/main.cfm?c=t_upd_show&id=5745 (English version: http://www.originals.be/eng/main.cfm?c=t_upd_show&id=5745), http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/SO_SOR.htm.
Then there is the case of the Primas: http://arbannour.free.fr/konchennou/son_ar_chistr.htm (what is the correct translation of "battage"?), http://www.scootertechno.pl/inspiration.php, already quoted. And here http://www.chorus-chanson.fr/HOME2/NUMERO17/courrier2.htm we seem to be seeing a descendent of the Primas requesting more information about the song.
I say I am not convinced it's a traditional, but of course on the other hand sometimes stories such as these attach themselves to songs. Sometimes they are true, sometimes not...
http://arbannour.free.fr/konchennou/son_ar_chistr.htm mentions Guiscriff, as you do. It also mentions Polig Monjarret, and his anthology is also mentioned here http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?ThreadID=27598 (5th post). http://arbannour.free.fr/konchennou/son_ar_chistr.htm's source is Musique bretonne Dastum 136 - juillet 1995.
So, it seems from these pages we have some names we can try to follow up:
The Primas
Julien Gwernig
Jean Golgévit
Guy Ferré
and perhaps we can try to find what else Polig Monjarret says.
So, yes, if you would like to go into further researches, it would be very helpful... One reason why we may sometimes appear to be quite slow at adding songs/making corrections is that we want to take care to be correct. With songs such as this one, it's not always easy... And "Reflets" is full of Breton traditionals, so this one is only the beginning... So, if you can help get this right, or as right as it is possible to be, I will appreciate it.
I also have a feeling that some of the covers of "Son ar chistr" we have listed in the database actually are not full covers. Perhaps Bots and Scooter are not full covers but partial covers, using the tune but not the lyrics. So this is something else to check.
Revised Bots
I think Scooter uses an interpolation of the tune:
Hello,
There's a topic by dpg from 18/11/2007 in which he writes that Goran Bregovic is not the performer of the song but the compiler of this CD .
It seems the performing artists were The Chieftains .
http://www.secondhandsongs.com/topic/19014
Greetings.
Patrick.
Last updated by Patrick on 2009-01-10 11:14:35 UTC
I've done a little bit of research on the web about the Goran Bregovic-cover .
On following Italian site,StM writes about the research he did to find the real performers of the songs on the CD "Irish Songs" by Yugoslavian musician Goran Bregovic.(my Italian isn't that good,maybe editor Quentin can translate it for us ?)
http://stm.sottosuolo.org/2007/08/25/irish-songs-cosa-ce-di-difficile-nel-capire…
On YouTube,you can listen to the Goran Bregovic-track.
In a response,angrywolf8 wrote :
"I'm sorry but Goran Bregovic is not singing this song.The singer is Kevin Conneff from The Chieftains and this song is on the album "An Irish wedding"."
On the official Goran Bregovic-site,the CD is not listed in his discography:
http://www.goranbregovic.co.yu/discography.htm
Angrywolf8 isn't completely right as the correct title of the Chieftains-CD is "Celtic Wedding:Music of Brittany" from 1986.
The song is track 7 on that CD.
http://www.chieftains.com/discography/disc_celticwedding.asp
You can listen to a piece of the song on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000064XI/thebards?ref=nosim
Greetings from Zeebrugge.
Patrick.
Last updated by Patrick on 2009-01-07 20:57:17 UTC
Thanks for finding that, Patrick, and you're right, here is the booklet from Goran Bregovic's CD:
OK, updated Goran Bregovic's version to the Chieftains.
But even that one is not simple... http://members.shaw.ca/chieftains/celticw.html: the album appears to have two different covers. I'm not sure which one came first. The suggestion is the one on the left is the original.
http://www.chieftains.com/discography/disc_celticwedding.asp claims it was released in 1986 and nominated for the 1986 Grammys. But http://members.shaw.ca/chieftains/history.html says it was nominated for the 1988 Grammys. http://members.shaw.ca/chieftains/celticw.html and http://www.ceolas.org/artists/Chieftains.html agree it was released in 1987, and the rear cover art is copyrighted 1987 so I went with 1987.
(my Italian isn't that good,maybe editor Quentin can translate it for us ?)
Or Anto... Anyway, the guy is pissed because all the sources on the Internet say the album is performed by Goran Bregovic, while he is only the producer. So he made an attempt to identify the real performers. Note that the blogger doesn't have the original CD: in fact, he asks for help from someone who owns it in order to identify the two "unknown" artists. Do you think I should contact him and find out more?
Seems a strange thing to be pissed about, if he doesn't even own the CD... Anyway, no need to contact him for SHS purposes, but perhaps he might want to see the booklet that I posted on the previous page...
Looks like one of his unknown songs, "Worship", could be by Richard Souther http://richardsouther.com/default.htm?p=illumination.htm&s=-1
You have quoted Alan Stivell as first cover. Why the Chieftains are put at the top when we go to this song?
It's easy to respect chronology.
To precise some things, it is true that the song "Ev' chistr 'ta Laou" as been composed by Jean-Bernard and Jean-Marie Prima in 1929 in the Guiscriff-Roudoualec area of Celtic Brittany. It is a traditional song because it has been created in the traditional way (no author rights, no early publishings).
Alan Stivell recorded first this song. As he became very quickly World famous in the early 70s, the song has been known and sung or adapted by other peoples. Without Alan Stivell, we surely would not be speaking of it.
To precise some things, it is true that the song "Ev' chistr 'ta Laou" as been composed by Jean-Bernard and Jean-Marie Prima in 1929 in the Guiscriff-Roudoualec area of Celtic Brittany. It is a traditional song because it has been created in the traditional way (no author rights, no early publishings).
OK, thank you for confirming that. I have added the Primas as authors, and changed the comment of the original: Son ar chistr I will try to find out a bit more about some of the other names I mentioned (Jean Golgévit, Guy Ferré, etc), but I haven't had time yet.
You have quoted Alan Stivell as first cover. Why the Chieftains are put at the top when we go to this song?
It's easy to respect chronology.
I'm not sure what you mean. Each song has its own separate record in the database. So, if you go to Ev Chistr 'ta, laou! (Cider-drinking Song) (song number 6022), this is the database record for the Chieftains' version of the song, and indeed the Chieftains are put at the top (in the red heading text). But if you go to Son ar chistr (song number 87391), this is the database record for Alan Stivell's version. Does this answer your question, or maybe I misunderstood... ?
Thanks very much. I now have understood the way it walks.
Best wishes,
And an other czech cover : Hakka Muggies with "Den už končí" on their album "Is fearr an bás" (2007)
Here the links :
baggish (the other ones involved literally haven't been around for ages)
Hi, I was about finally going to sleep when suddenly stumbling over this thread (and I envy your patience shown in this discussion...).
Just FYI (or not anymore): Did you have a look at the Son ar chistr page, recently? In the meantime loads of versions, adaptations and sub-adaptations have been submitted, mainly by one guy, and in lots of cases randomly attributed, credited and so on. In fact, it has become a bigger mess than ever and, not to spend days and nights on only doing so, I gave in on attempting to just sort out the German(y related) ones...
Cheers, E.
Hi Erik, no I hadn't looked at that page recently. I am only really fixing errors nowadays and I don't think that will change in the foreseeable future so it looks like I won't be able to process those versions. But I would say it's nice someone has put in a lot of effort and work.
Cheers!
Hi Jon, I just intended to inform you, but surely not to encourage you to go for all those submissions - and as surely I don't see myself in the position to do so, either. To put it the same neutral way as yourself: It's always nice when people show enthusiasm (but...).
Should I once upon a time end up with lots of spare time and motivation, I might try to further sort out the German versions mess.
Cheers!