Hey Joe

This site names the version of "Hey Joe" by the Surfaris as the original, from 1965. I have always thought the original was by the Leaves (1966).

So I tried to find confirmation elsewhere, but to no avail. What I did find was that the song does not appear on any Surfaris album from the sixties. The track can however be found on the album "Gone with the wav", first released in 1977. This album is full with covers and the information about it on Amazon.com seems to confirm the Surfaris version was indeed a cover.

Furthermore, I find no mention of the song on thesurfaris.com, the site of Bob Berryhill, an original member of the band. One would think that if a band had in fact the original version of a classic like "Hey Joe" it would surely be mentioned on his site. But all he talks about is Wipe out and the B side Surfer Joe.

On the other hand the All music guide can be quoted as follows:

"One of the first L.A. folk-rock groups to spring up in the wake of the Byrds in the mid-'60s, the Leaves are most remembered for recording the first — and one of the most successful — rock versions of "Hey Joe," which reached the Top 40 (and was a huge California hit) in 1966."

Am I missing something ?

Yes you are

Check the website http://www.heyjoe.org/

Too easy, Denis..... and not accurate.... I haven't missed the "Hey Joe" site.

Without wanting to take anything away from the enormous work put into that site by Jan Marius Franzen, I have to say that just because he writes it on his site, doesn't make it the truth. As far as I can tell, he only makes the statement that the Surfaris were first, but does not back it up with evidence.

If you look a little bit further, you will find conflicting information elsewhere, ..... like (for example) my quote from the All music guide, considered by many to be a reliable source, which is clearly in favor of the Leaves.

Earlier today I had a conversation with another music collector, who had some useful information on the subject. He has a vinyl album by the Surfaris, called "Wipe Out", The Singles Album, 1963-67". It was apparently released by MCA in 1987. According to the information on the sleeve (I hope to receive a scan soon) the Surfaris released "Hey Joe" as a single in April '66.

It would seem the Surfaris and the Leaves both recorded adoptations of the song as developed by David Crosby. His band, the Byrds, used to include the song in their live shows at Ciro's, the most important avant-garde venue in L.A. in 1965. The Leaves were the next resident group at Ciro's and they were big fans of the Byrds. They actually recorded the song for the first time in 1965, but weren't satisfied with the result.

The Byrds had not yet recorded the song at that time because Jim McGuinn and Gene Clark had objected to it. Only after "the Leaves" and "Love" had recorded Crosby's arrangement the objections were lifted and the song was recorded by the Byrds to be included in their 5th dimension album at the end of 1966. By that time the Surfaris had also released it as a single.

The Surfaris' producer at the beginning of 66 was Gary Usher, one of the most influential managers in L.A. who had very strong relations with the Byrds. He knew Crosby's version of the song and proposed it to the Surfaris for a single, as they were desperately in need of a new hit, since their contract with Decca was about to expire. Hence the version of the Surfaris came about.

Ergo; all the available information supports the conclusion that the Byrds were the first to play it live, and the Leaves recorded it first in 1965. Their 1966 rerecording came after the Surfaris' version had been recorded in early 1966 for release as a single in april of that year.

So, Denis, if you want to take the information of only one site at face value, feel free to do so, but to discuss the subject and/or convince me you need more than that.

I have just mailed Bob Berryhill to see what he has to say on the matter.

Ron, most of what you said was very interesting, thanks a lot for your contribution. You were absolutely right, apart from heyjoe.org or originals.be there is no evidence that The Surfaris were the first to record "Hey Joe". I have one small remark though: I don't consider Allmusic as a trustworthy source. I have seen too many mistakes and inaccuracies on there for that.

I didn't say I considered AMG reliable, just that many people do. Mailing Bob Berryhill may be a good idea, as long as you take his likely partiality into account.

Meanwhile, as we wait for his reply, I have the following to add;

For what it's worth; if you listen to the versions by the Leaves and the Surfaris, you notice they both clearly resemble the version by the Byrds, recorded later.

More interesting is the information about the Leaves found at Vernon Joynson's "Fuzz, Acid & Flowers" (www.borderlinebooks.com).

He gives the first recorded version of "Hey Joe" by the Leaves on Mira records in 1965, with Be with you" as the B side. It would be interesting to find out exactly on what date that single (Mira 207) was released!.

In the group's bio he writes:

"The band's break came when they got a residency at Ciro's in L.A. They then chose a new name The Leaves and had posters designed with pictures of themselves and a marijuana leaf saying 'The Leaves Are Happening'. Pat Boone heard them playing at the club one night and signed them for his Penthouse Production Company. Through this The Leaves were first signed to Mira and released their debut single Too Many People/Love Minus Zero. The 'A' side was a hit in Los Angeles.

The Leaves were the first band to release Hey Joe as a single. They made two previous recordings of Hey Joe before the third fuzztone version, which reached No. 31 in the U.S. charts.

This seems to support the information I gave in my previous posting.

Since Jan Marius Franzen created a site just for this cover, and Arnold Rypens put lots of research in his book "The Originals", I preferred their info above the info at AMG, which, as we all know, isn't an accurate site to determine an original (but has lots of useful info nevertheless).

Anyway, I mailed Jan Marius Franzen with a request to provide a reliable source for his info.

I really like the discussion you started about this classic song, and I'm fascinated by the fact the internet (and books) provides us with lots of contradicting info. Let us get to the bottom of this!

I don't know if you've seen these sites:

Pro-Surfaris: http://www.tsimon.com/heyjoe.htm

Pro-Leaves: http://globalia.net/donlope/fz/songs/Hey_Joe.html (this site also claims the song was copyrighted in 1962)

I agree with you that Jan Marius Franzen has invested a lot of time in setting up his website. However, two things should be noted. First of all the main focus of his site is the massive number of covers of the song. Only limited information is given about the origin and what is said, isn't backed up by evidence.

As to Arnold Rypens, he also spends a lot of time tracking down originals, and he has provided a lot of useful information. However, as is demonstrated by the large number of corrections on his website, he isn't always right.

The problem with your referal to his site in this discussion is this;

In the last edition of his book, Arnold credits the Leaves for having the original and he makes no mention of the Surfaris. Judging by his website, he has apparently changed his mind at the end of last year, in favor of the Surfaris. However, if you look a little further, you will find that he is doing so on the basis of the "Hey Joe" website by J.M. Franzen, to which he actually refers.......

A similar problem exists with the website you name in favor of the Surfaris....... If you compare the text to the one on Franzen's website you will find a nearly exact match, to the point that I dare to say the one is a copy of the other...... and again no concrete evidence.

As far as the Leaves go, I have again found information which seems to confirm the content of my previous postings;

The serial number of the Surfaris single "Hey Joe" is Decca 31954, which allows the single to be conclusively dated to May 1966.

The Leaves, on the other hand, recorded in total three versions of the song. The first one (Mira 207) was released in 1965. The other two date from 1966 and both have the same release number (Mira 222) with the third and final one reaching the charts.

I did also find a claim (on an other discussionboard) by an unidentified user which simply said that the Surfaris did in fact record an unreleased version of the song early in 1965 and the 1966 version is their second recording. But again no proof was provided. It also does not tie in with other information available to us. For example, everbody seems to agree on the fact that both the Surfaris and the Leaves have based their version on an adoptation by David Crosby and that the song was first played by the Byrds at Ciro's in Los Angeles.

The Byrds actually started their residency at Ciro's in January 1965. It lasted until the end of March when they were replaced by the Leaves, who shortly afterwards recorded their first version of "Hey Joe". So, it seems to me there simply wasn't time for the Surfaris to beat them to the punch. And don't forget the Surfaris record cover I mentioned earlier...... it clearly says Gary Usher, the producer of the Surfaris, didn't get David Crosby's permission to use the song until early 1966.

Perhaps the best source for settling this discussion will be David Crosby!

Last edit: 2003-10-09 01:13:44 UTC by Ron

Lots of discussions about it too, most are pro-Leaves but they get it from the same sources as we do.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=nl&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&th=f5e72f6507bf04f0&…

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=nl&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&th=2d699fccca540e4c&…

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=nl&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&th=dc28969bc2fe84db&… (in this thread, last year, JMF himself even claims it's a traditional song!)

But we'll have to hear it from David Crosby to be sure indeed..

Maybe we don't have to bother David Crosby after all. Check out the discograhy on this site:

http://www.garyusher.com/

As I have previously indicated, Gary Usher was the producer of the Surfaris and the one who asked Crosby's permission to use the song. The information on this site apparently comes from the late producer's archives and was compiled by his biographer Stephen J. McParland at the request of the Usher family.

The discography provides details of all his productions, including "Hey Joe" by the Surfaris.

So Get Out / Hey Joe, Where Are You Going - The Surfaris

Decca 31954 released 6/66

Producer and Arranger: Gary Usher

There is no mention of any unreleased previous recording from 1965!.

So, rather than going with speculation, let's consider the facts as they are now known.

1. There seems to be no dispute about the fact that the Leaves recorded their first version (Mira 207) of "Hey Joe" in 1965, after they had replaced the Byrds at Ciro's.

2. No real evidence can be found anywhere to substantiate there was indeed an unreleased version by the Surfaris recorded in 1965.

3. On the site of Bob Berryhill, one of the Surfaris' original members, nothing is said about "Hey Joe", which - to say the least - is strange, if in fact the Surfaris had the original.

4. The sleeve of the vinyl album "Wipe Out", The Singles Album, 1963-67" (released by MCA in 1987), tells us the Surfaris released "Hey Joe" as a single in April '66.

5. Another Surfaris "Best of" album called "Gone with the Wave" (released by Coral records in 1977) is full with covers of well known classics, and in an editorial about this album on Amazon.com "Hey Joe" is qualified as a cover.

6. Although the Surfaris released quite a few albums in the sixties, on no album from the period the track "Hey Joe" can be found. In fact the first album on which the track is listed is "Gone with the Wave" from 1977.

7. "It ain't me babe" (released in 1965) appears to be the final album by the Surfaris on Decca, which - I believe - suggests that their relationship with the label was terminated shortly after this album was released. Perhaps somewhere in 1966?

8. And finally the website dedicated to the work of Gary Usher tells us the version by the Surfaris was released on Decca records in June 1966. This of course ties in perfectly with the previously given sleeve information (4) and that fact the Usher asked Crosby if the Surfaris could record the song, because their contract with Decca was about to expire (7) and they were in desperate need of a new hitsong.

What do you think, Denis..... is the mystery solved?

Well about 95% of it. There are still some details (i.e. different release dates for the Surfaris version etc) to be cleared but let's assume the Leaves released it first.

I'll change the data but meanwhile I'm still waiting for any reply by mail with some undoubtable evidence.

Anyway thanks alot for providing us with this huge amount of info Ron. I sure hope we get more people like you on this forum!

And just as I was about to change the data I got a reply:

Hello Dennis,

Thank you for writing me.

Michael Hicks states in his book: Sixties Rock

Garage , Psychedelic & Other Satisfactions (University of Illinois Press) on

page 45

(Chapter about 'Hey Joe' - The Not-So-Average "Joe")

' The first group to record "Hey Joe" was apparently the Surfaris, who were

best known for their surf songs. including "Surfer Joe" (1962). They

recorded "Hey Joe" in September 1965, but, perhaps out of loyalty to Crosby

and the Byrds, did not include it on their November 1965 folk rock album, It

Ain't Me Babe.

If there is evidence that the Leaves version was recorded earlier I will

change the information on www.heyjoe.org .

Sincerely,

Jan Marius Franzen

Michael Hicks, professor of music at Brigham Young University, should be a reliable reference, but still no hard facts..

Last edit: 2003-10-09 20:57:10 UTC by Denis

Hi Denis,

At first glance the reply by Jan Marius Franzen might lead you away from the conclusion that the Leaves were the first to record "Hey Joe", but if you look closer at what he writes, it really doesn't.

If there is evidence that the Leaves version was recorded earlier I will change the information on www.heyjoe.org

Doesn't this indicate quite clearly that Jan Marius isn't all that sure about the validity of his position ?

As his assertion seems to be based solely on the research of Michael Hicks, let's just examine what the good professor is really saying in his book........

If the quote from the book is correct and contains all the information the professor provides, there is indeed - like you say - no hard evidence whatsoever!.

Even more telling perhaps is that mr. Hicks is using the terms "apparently" and "perhaps" in what he writes. Doesn't this suggest that even the good professor isn't sure?

So let's compare what he is saying with what we already know.

1) we know for a fact the Leaves took over residency at Ciro's from the Byrds somewhere in March 1965.

2) Pat Boone saw them there, and got them a contract with Mira records. Their first single was Too Many People/Love Minus Zero (Mira 202), which wasn't successfull. Shortly after that they recorded the first version of "Hey Joe" (Mira 207). I did read somewhere (on another board) the single was released in november 1965, but I have found no definitive evidence to support that.

3) Producer Gary Usher asked David Crosby for permission to use the song at the end of 1965. He did so (and this is important) because the Surfaris' contract with Decca was running out and they needed a new hit quickly.

4) The Gary Usher website tells us the Surfaris didn't release the song as a single until June 1966. As their producer he should know, shouldn't he ?

5) The album "It ain't me babe" (which was released in november 1965 and doesn't include "Hey Joe") was the last one by the Surfaris on Decca records. Their next album was released by Coral records in 1973.

Today I learned the Surfaris actually broke up shortly after the release of "It ain't me babe", after their contract with Gary Usher had ended. In fact one of their members actually joined the band "Love" which also recorded "Hey Joe".

http://www.vh1.com/artists/az/surfaris/bio.jhtml

So, if you believe what the professor says, the story goes like this;

Usher asks Crosby for permission to use the song, because the Surfaris need a hit to continue at Decca. They record the song in September 1965, but don't release it until June 1966, in spite of the fact that at least two others bands (the Leaves and Love) record and release it as well at roughly the same time. Even worse, they don't even include it on their last Decca album (released two months later) which is considered to be "promising".

I don't know about you, Denis, but to me it all seems a bit strange.

What is even stranger is that after all the research you and I have done, we still haven't found any concrete proof in favor of the Surfaris position. So why go with that, when on the other hand there are a great number of indications pointing us ithe other way?

Did you follow a course to become a detective or something?

No, you're scoring some fact points again, especially the fact we didn't find any hard evidence concering the Surfaris.

I still have one last hope: I'll start a newsgroup discussion in be.music and nl.music based on this thread. Maybe someone out there does have some hard facts..

Well, Denis, as a lawyer I am used to dealing with facts rather than speculation.

If a Leaves vs Surfaris case was presented to a court, based upon the information we now have available to us, I would have little doubt about the outcome.

As a jury member I now prefer the Leaves (as you do), but I won't cast my vote yet..

I call Bob Berryhill to the stands!

I really think Ron has a point in his comment to my contribution on this forum.

So I updated www.heyjoe.org !

Thanks Ron and Denis!

You're welcome (although credits should go to Ron only) ! And now Arnold Rypens has to withdraw the update from his site too

Denis, I saw you updated our site. However, there is no explanation why we designate the Leaves as the original. Perhaps a short explanation based on Ron's arguments could be interesting.

Hi Bastian, I know you asked Denis, but maybe this information is of use to you;

There is no dispute about the fact that the Leaves recorded the first of three versions of "Hey Joe" in 1965. So, when exactly did they record it ?

We know from the facts that the recording took place after they had taken over from the Byrds as the resident band at Ciro's. L.A., in March 1965, because Pat Boone saw them there and got them a record deal with Mira records. "Hey Joe" was in fact their second single on the label.

Although I did not find any confirmation elsewhere, I did read on another board their single "Hey Joe"was released for the first time in november 1965. If you assume this to be correct, and take into account the logistics involved in releasing a single, you have to conclude they probably must have recorded the song somewhere in September 1965.

You also have to consider the fact that "Hey Joe" was their second single. So, let's - for argument's sake - say Pat Boone saw them at Ciro's somewhere in April 1965. Negotiating a record deal is not an overnight matter and would have taken at least (let's say) a month, which brings us to somewhere in May / June 1965.

Hence, if they started recording shortly after that, their first single "Too many people" (Mira 202) must have been released somewhere in the summertime of 1965. We know the record didn't do very well outside the L.A. area.

As their second single "Hey Joe" is registered as Mira 207, it must have been released shortly after the first one, as there were only 4 others singles between them. Personally I find it hard to believe a record label would only release 1 or 2 singles per month, so it seems reasonable to conclude both singles must have been released within a matter of weeks.

So which ever way you look at it the recording session in which they taped "Hey Joe" for the first time must have taken place somewhere between late August and early October 1965.

Now, what do we know about the Surfaris?

Well, they released their final Decca album "It ain't me babe" in November 1965 and disbanded halfway through 1966 after their Decca contract had expired.

The album does not include "Hey Joe".

According to Gary Usher - their producer - the single "Hey Joe" by the Surfaris was not released until June 1966, and no evidence can be found anywhere to support the claim that they actually recorded it in September 1965.

And finally..... just read the information provided by Bob Berryhill's site.

The Surfaris were already breaking up in 1965. In fact Pat Connolly left the band while they were touring Japan in August 1965.

So, the question has to be, how could the Surfaris have recorded "Hey Joe" in September 1965, if shortly before they were on tour on the other side of the world and were already starting to break up. I just don't think so.....

Perhaps this makes it easier for Denis to answer your question....

Last edit: 2003-10-11 13:09:36 UTC by Ron